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Blood Knight Tanking Guides?
  • There was mention last night of better places for BK DK guides for MK than wow.com. =P

    Gimme.
    Post edited by Kastang at 2011-05-27 09:04:38
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • PS, I know about EJ, but there were others mentioned.
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • Satorri's Guide to the Bloody Future is the one I mentioned last night.
  • Hmm, Leon's guy puts a LOT more emphasis on expertise than the other guides. I can see why: a paried DS is a wasted GCD/no healing/no blood shield for the GCD, not to mention threat loss. But he's suggesting reforging dodge and parry into expertise until the cap.

    Opinions?
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • I'd definitely consider taking the exp. I'm leveling my dk (in the 80s) as a tank and have a healer climbing the high 70s. I don't know how indicative this is of raid-level tanking but so far what jumps out at me - dk tanks can take huuuge spikes in damage. Keep handy/macro up your self-heals and 'oh shit' buttons, like lichborne/self-dc. Don't let ds go to waste on ovehealing.
  • If it's better return than gemming for it I can see that. I've had to reforge/gem into hit and expertise to some extent on Anzh. Missed strikes no longer generate holy power. Also, missed holy power attacks now burn the holy power anyway. Both of those are bad for threat.

    But then, I would have reforged the parry/dodge into mastery anyway, so it's not like I'd miss them.
    But I need tacos! I need them or I will explode. That happens to me sometimes.
  • When your strikes miss/are dodged/parried, I *believe* (and would have to double check) you're refunded the rune cost. To that end, you don't lose strike damage or healing, per se; it simply gets pushed back. You do lose that GCD, which can be situationally important if you're counting on a DS. However, hopefully you've got a defensive CD popped and the healer's attention on you when it matters most. So, I'd say the value is really just a threat issue, and if you're comfortable with your threat, it's okay to go under cap(s).

    But that's just from my reading on EJ and Wowhead, as I haven't tanked in Cata and thus don't have real life experience to offer. But that's the theory on being undercapped.

    EDIT: Some relevant discourse.
    Post edited by Hoff at 2011-05-13 13:54:02
    a/k/a Victarious
  • Eh, he makes a good point of it being more than just lost threat; it's lost healing, lost blood shield, etc. I've just reforged a bit of dodge/parry to hit the expertise cap, going to try it out. At most I lose maybe 1% of mitigation in return for about 5% more blood shields with my stats. That seems like a good deal to me /shrug

    EDIT: Just to be crystal clear, for a DK they rely on Death Strike for their heals and blood shields; this actually has very little to do with threat and much more to do with survival. Just ask the healers that tried to keep me up during the raid last night during one part of the fight where I thought I couldn't hit the thing I was tanking for a solid minute. Now ask them what happened when I actually DID Death Strike during that minute (hint: I stayed alive and we won).
    Post edited by Maloch at 2011-05-13 13:59:35
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • Hoff said:

    you don't lose strike damage or healing



    You definitely lose it in the short term, which can count for a great deal.

    Hoff said:

    However, hopefully you've got a defensive CD popped



    I think that might be what separates 'buttonmashing dk tank' from 'dk tank'.


  • Since a lot of DK survivability is in that bloodsheield + heals from hits - if misses are taking away from that expertise becomes a much more valuable stat.
    For warriors it is mostly just a threat thing and thus not quite so critical a stat.
  • That's what I'm getting from his guide, and it makes sense. Expertise double-dips above plain hit as it goes against both parry and dodge (at least until dodge drops off).

    I went from 8 expertise to 26 with reforging; we'll see how it works in the days to come and the raid Sunday.
    Post edited by Maloch at 2011-05-13 15:29:04
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • Hoff said:

    However, hopefully you've got a defensive CD popped



    I think that might be what separates 'buttonmashing dk tank' from 'dk tank'.




    Strategically using a defensive cooldown during spike damage, is what I meant by "when it matters most," conveniently excluded from the cited passage. :) Should have made my meaning clearer there! But that's knowing the fight. No one should suggest using them reflexively unless something goes awry, which can happen regardless of stats.

    I get the point about needing it when you need it. The point I was trying to make is that blood shield stacks, and since you get the missed runes refunded, missing a DS is a net loss of zero to your shield and likely to the direct heal. But you all are correct about not wanting to be left twisting in the wind when you need a heal the most.
    Post edited by Hoff at 2011-05-13 15:51:22
    a/k/a Victarious
  • I'll say something about the blood shield stacking: it often doesn't get a chance to do so ;) Damage was hot and heavy coming in during the boss fights, and intelligent use of DS isn't actually spamming it like a drinking bird hitting the key (which like all new DK tanks I stumbled on at first). You want to have just taken a chunk of nice damage to maximize blood shield, not enough to take you into healer freakout land, but hefty. But if you played smart and delayed it a second another 1.5 waiting after you miss could be ... unhealthy =P
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • Well, there you go then. Forget I said anything. :)
    a/k/a Victarious
  • Hoff said:

    Strategically using a defensive cooldown during spike damage, is what I meant by "when it matters most," conveniently excluded from the cited passage. :)



    I lie unreservedly when quoting, that's for sure. Apologies in advance!


    Post edited by hronk at 2011-05-13 16:46:18
  • Heh. No, like I said, I should have been clearer. Though I say this to you now: I shall not let my good name be besmirched, sir.
    Post edited by Hoff at 2011-05-13 17:35:23
    a/k/a Victarious
  • I like Pwnwear, myself. It is a site that is pretty much dedicated to DK tanking only.
    I used to care... now I take a pill for that...

    In partnership for an idiot-free America...

    Tanks are the only Class/Spec that makes you fight NPCs and members of your group at the same time.
  • *smirch hoff*
  • With the continued homogenization of classes, I kind of have a hard time telling whether there's really something particularly exceptional about dk tanking beyond what you'd find in the well-known places. Is there? Pwnwear sounds good but looks distinctly un-navigable. On top of the fact that links seem broken in the forums right now.
  • hronk said:

    *smirch hoff*


    SIR, YOU FORGET YOURSELF!

    Serious question, as I don't tank on either (anymore). Do warriors or bears have a self-heal? Because that's at least something, and DK and pala self heals differ somewhat in their implementation.
    a/k/a Victarious
  • Warriors have a long-cd self-HoT and and a couple of other long-cd mitigation abilities (shield wall, last stand, etc). I am not sure what the exact mechanics are but from a nub healer perspective, the only tanks I see suddenly going from 100 to 50% health are dk's. Since it takes somewhere between 1.5 to 3 seconds for me to do anything about it, I kind of assume the responsible dk tank has to be be able to take care of themselves in that time. On my own dk tank (81) I just faceroll over the 'oh shit' section of the keyboard when that happens.

    This might not be class-related though. Leveling DK's and dps warriors seem to be particularly fond of standing in front of mobs when dps-ing, well into at least the 70s. Why they are over-represented in that folly compared to, say, rogues or ench shamans, I am at a loss to explain.
    Post edited by hronk at 2011-05-13 21:01:13
  • Actually it is class-related; the devs have come out and said they expect DKs to take more damage. However that's also why they have more self-heals. Even in my newborn trash gear after the entire team and healer go down I can stand toe to toe with heroic troll bosses and take em down a few more percent. As best I can tell, this is a good shorthand for the tanks (keep in mind I only have experience with three of them, and haven't tanked with a pally in a long long time).

    Warrior: tank of all trades. Shield, bit of self-healing, lots of cooldowns for tactical use. Most liable to change or nerfing as they seem to be paying a tax for being the only viable tanks in Vanilla.

    Death Knight: takes the most damage of any tank but can also heal a large portion of it back. With improved rune tap and blood worms they actually contribute to raid/group healing in a not insignificant way. Excellent cooldowns, but if they can't hit something they die as they have 'offensive healing' (i.e. death strike and blood worms [spawned from auto attacks] are the primary means of mitigating damage). The only class for whom expertise and hit can actually be considered 'survival' stats.

    Bears: Agility/dodge, can't parry, but massive armor and health (I think)

    Pallys: Pansies that wear skirts =P Oh, and carry a shield, strong self-healing, and generally seemed a lot more locked into rotations back when I played them.
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • As a healer, you should just carry an extra shield with you, to give to DK tanks who take too much damage for you to keep up with.
  • Oh, and Hronk, as an aside you'll see DK tanks take significantly more damage at the very start of a fight because they don't have any blood shields up yet (you get a portion of the healing you did with death strike back as a shield like a priest shield; by stacking mastery I'm up to 122% shield myself of the health I healed). The health drop is, well, by dev design lol
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • I look forward to doing an exceptionally poor job of healing you, Maloch! I am really facerolling my way through healing dungeons so far, I have a hard time imagining this will change when I hit toplevel.
    Post edited by hronk at 2011-05-13 22:58:36
  • Mal, you're still a nub
    image
  • Maloch said:


    Pallys: Pansies that wear skirts =P Oh, and carry a shield, strong self-healing, and generally seemed a lot more locked into rotations back when I played them.

    Those are kilts, damn it! Anywhoo, our self healing took a big hit in the form of a long CD on Word of Glory. In a sense, we are CD machines: With trinkets I have 6 individual damage mitigating CDs along with a group shield and a group heal. Also, our incoming damage tends to be more consistent, less spikey.
    That said, I really like the DK tanking model. They have the best mastery, super self healing and some nice CDs. Not to mention I'd trade all my holy power for the ability to death grip a caster.
    But I need tacos! I need them or I will explode. That happens to me sometimes.
  • Pwnwear

    Corrected for DK goodness...
    I used to care... now I take a pill for that...

    In partnership for an idiot-free America...

    Tanks are the only Class/Spec that makes you fight NPCs and members of your group at the same time.

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