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This one goes to 11,000 (DPS That is)... HELP!
  • It has been brought to our attention that as a ranged DPS class we should be doing a steady 11,000 for boss fights.

    I'd like to get some thoughts on how to achieve that goal as a hunter. This thread is a spot where you can give suggestions on gear, gems, enchants and the like that have helped you personally to output this insane DPS.

    I know when we fought Garr I put out about 9800dps and died twice, in Beast Master. I have heard the Survival is the way to go for hunters, but I need some serious breakdowns of the shots I should be using and in what order. Elitest Jerks confused the hell out of me and when I try to use their shot priorities as suggested my DPS is all like "Ella-later go down the hole"...

    I need to make sure I'm putting my A game out there and I'm not ashamed to say that right now I'm key spamming. Help!!!

    And thank you to everyone for the total honesty. It's better to put the cold hard truth out there now than to beat our heads against the upcoming raid dungeons for an eternity.
  • Although I'm still learning how to play Survival spec effectively, I'll compile things that I know (can be wrong) and do (for now).

    Stat importance:
    Agility > Haste > Mastery
    (assuming you are Hit capped)

    Shot priority:
    Kill Shot > Exp Shot > Black Arrow >Cobra Shot > Arcane Shot

    What I basically do is spam Cobra shot and use whatever important shot when it becomes available. Ideally you want to use Exp shot as soon as it is available so managing your focus is quite important. Focus regeneration will change with haste related proc that you might have together with Rapid Fire and external factors such as Heroism.

    Prime Glyphs:
    I started with
    1. Kill Shot
    2. Exp Shot
    3. Serpent Sting

    but now I changed Serpent Sting glyph to Arcane Shot glyph.

    The reason being that I started to have more occasion where I have excess of focus due to overlapping procs plus things like heroism and began to use Arcane shot as focus dump more often.
    Also in 5 man heroics and such, having 12% more damage with Arcane shot is more appealing to me than Serpent Sting which I mostly skip to apply.

    But it might be safer to start with Serpent Sting glyph.

    Shots at LnL proc:
    Since Exp Shot is a strange shot that does damage over time, you don't want to clip it by using two Exp shots in a row.

    Most of the time you will want
    Exp shot - Cobra shot - Exp shot

    but if you are about to waste focus (doesn't happen so often)
    Exp shot - Arcane shot - Exp shot

    Small things adds up to become huge:
    I'm always trying to bring "my A game" to raids that I participate. This means I try my best to gather everything I can get from the game, be it enchant (including rep related ones), gems, flask, potion or food.

    As for rep related stuff, Head Enchant from Ramkahen (revered) and Shoulder Enchant from Therazane (exalted) should not me missed.

    For regular enchanting, although I still skip those that require Maelstrom Crystal since they are too expensive yet, I try to figure our the best combination using simulators.

    In raid, I use Flask of the Winds and have Skewered Eel for food buff.
    I also use Potion of the Tol'vir at critical moments of Boss fights.

    Learn the Fights:
    With all the above as preparation for the actual raid, I'm always trying to figure out the best spot to stand during boss fights that require minimum movement to make the best out of Sniper Training. Knowing the fight mechanic should lead you to figure out the right timing to use your CDs.

    There may be plenty of stuff that I'm still missing or need to study but hope this will serve as a reference for your change to Survival spec.

    Sofina (hunter) | Antaras (rogue) | Sarshia (druid) | Mefius (death knight)
  • Bless you Sofi !! This is great. Hugs!!
  • This is the kind of stuff that makes Sofi and WK hunters in general so awesome.

    If lovin Sofi and Dardan and Duma and JZ is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
    Post edited by constanza at 2011-01-21 08:50:13
  • If you are making use of cobra shot in your rotation, I would expect that you would want to add serpent sting into the mix to take advantage of the extra damage from it and the refresh from cobra shot.

    A revised rotation might look like this

    Serpent Sting > Kill Shot > Exp Shot > Black Arrow > Cobra Shot > Arcane Shot

    By the time you get to cobra shot your serpent sting should be ready for a refresh.

    Shot - Cast time - Duration - Cooldown - Focus
    Serpent Sting - Instant - 15s - x - 25
    Kill Shot - Instant - x - 10s - x
    Exp Shot - Instant - 2s - 6s - 50
    Black Arrow - Instant - 15s - 30s - 35
    Cobra Shot - 1.5s - x - x - x
    Arcane Shot - Instant - x - x - 25

    After the Arcane shot you should be able to hit Explosive shot and then start the cycle again minus the Serpent sting since that can be kept refreshed with Cobra Shot.

    * This is paper napkin math from some of my experiments and haven't been tested yet.

    All to critiques and feedback are welcome. Happy Hunting!
    Post edited by Tolismir at 2011-01-21 09:59:25
  • Tolismir is right, I forgot to include Serpent Sting which is absolutely necessary for longer fights which in turn brings forth one of the advantages of Cobra shot which is refreshing it.

    Thanks for pointing it out.

    Paper napkin math is great, practicing on target dummies is also good to let your fingers learn the timing without thinking about it.
    One of my goals in raid is to make my shot selections and timing as close as possible to the practiced pattern (of course I still hear my name being called out on vent by raid leaders and healers for doing things that I'm not supposed to do) which is still a challenge and the reason why playing WoW is still enjoyable for me.

    Sofina (hunter) | Antaras (rogue) | Sarshia (druid) | Mefius (death knight)
  • Yeah like "Sofie get back in heal range! why you running away!" or "Oh god Sofie just pulled!" hehehe j/k
    I love gnomes.
  • Also always, and I mean always, ensure you have enough focus to cast Explosive Shot again as soon as it's off cooldown. Anytime ES is off cooldown and not being cast is a net DPS loss for you (unless you're waiting for the second tick of its DOT on a LnL proc). Arcane shot is one of those "sort of nice" shots if 1) all your other shots are on cooldown and 2) you have maximum focus and need to burn some off and it won't take you below the focus to cast ES/Black Arrow. Truthfully you won't suffer much of a paper DPS loss to just pull it off your bar as survival, and it'll make managing your rotation easier so will improve 'actual' DPS.
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • Are hunters like mages where the three specs are pretty close in average dps or is survival head and shoulders better?
  • Survival is head and shoulders ahead, BM is in the toilet. Marks is somewhere in the middle.

    (At least until the next patch)
    Post edited by Zoriana at 2011-01-21 14:21:24
  • Sofina said:

    Stat importance:
    Agility > Haste > Mastery
    (assuming you are Hit capped)

    Where is the Crit in this equation? Is there something about Survival that negates the need for Crit that I don't know about?
    Spencer Cross AKA Lurzmog | Balkhmog | Gobhoblin
  • It's not so much negating the need for crit as the 3 mentioned stats give much better returns than crit.
  • As Survival, don't forget about Serpent Spread, deep in the talent tree. With Serpent Spread, you can apply your Serpent Sting to an entire pack via your Multi-Shot. Add the Serpent Sting Glyph, and that packs quite a punch. Since we're talking boss fights, this mostly applies to adds, but once I learned about this and started hitting Multi-Shot at the beginning of fights, my DPS went up significantly.
    Post edited by ozarks at 2011-01-21 15:11:49
  • I missed something again, sorry.

    Regarding crit, although I don't gem or enchant for it at the moment, I used to place more importance to it than mastery for reforging until recently. I'm not sure how it is calculated but as your gears get upgraded (which means more agility = more crit rate) and you get more haste, stat weight seems to shift between these two.

    I often refer to "Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer" to decide when I have to make decisions.

    Sofina (hunter) | Antaras (rogue) | Sarshia (druid) | Mefius (death knight)
  • Zoriana said:

    It's not so much negating the need for crit as the 3 mentioned stats give much better returns than crit.

    This goes counter to what I've been reading at Warcraft Hunter's Union and Elitist Jerks (which is probably my fault since I'm terrible at research). Can somebody point me to a source?
    Post edited by Lurzmog at 2011-01-21 15:55:28
    Spencer Cross AKA Lurzmog | Balkhmog | Gobhoblin
  • From the EJ survival thread:

    Short answer: It's because of all raid buffs that give you more crit.

    Long answer:
    This is how I think when I am about to balance crit and mastery. I use the 100 shots model with each shot dealing 100 damage, and my current crit is 19% unbuffed, but in raids fully buffed with flask, agi food, 5% crit buff, horn of winter buff etc. I get about 29.5% crit. My current mastery is about 16.5%. And according to world of logs, my elemental damage is 80% and my physical damage is 20%.

    So my combined crit and mastery is 46% and if i use the 100 shots model i get (100*100+x*100)(0.2+0.8*((46-x)/100+1)) and by using the derivative of that i get x~=35.5. So according to this i should balance my crit to 35.5% and that would give me a mastery of 10.5%

    But if i analyze the formula above in my graph calculator i can see that anything from x=29 to x=40 gives really good result. So approximately 4/6 to 5/6 of total mastery+crit should be crit and 2/6 to 1/6 should be mastery. And from here it starts to get really interesting because glyph of es gives you 6% more crit to es. So for es i have 46%+6%=52% total mastery+crit to balance.

    So if i now should balance 52% with explosive shot only (remember 100% elemental damage) i get (100*100+x*100)(1*((52-x)/100+1)) and as said before in this thread to get the best result x should now be half of 52, x=26. But once again analyzing the graph in my calculator i can see that anything from x=19 to x=33 gives really good result, or approximately 1/3 to 2/3 crit/mastery.

    So for my current gear/stats choice i take from both worlds, I know I get really good result for explosive shot with as low as 1/3 mastery. And for my overall damage i get really good result with as high as 1/3 mastery. And to achieve this balance i need a lot more mastery rating then crit rating on my gear.

    Post edited by Zoriana at 2011-01-21 16:31:26
  • Zoriana said:

    From the EJ survival thread:

    Ah, okay. So, to answer my original question, it is specific to Survival.
    Spencer Cross AKA Lurzmog | Balkhmog | Gobhoblin
  • What I'm interested by is what is left out of the priority system:
    1) traps
    2) kill command
  • Kill command may be used as focus dump but I always use Arcane shot for that purpose.
    As for traps, to me it's purely situational so didn't include in the priority list
    (I think I've never seen traps in such list explaining priority).

    Sofina (hunter) | Antaras (rogue) | Sarshia (druid) | Mefius (death knight)
  • I think back in the early 3.0 days there was a spec of Survival that benefited from trap dancing to keep a buff up, but since they changed that traps are now situational.

    As for Kill Command I suspect that with BM currently underperforming in raids there isn't a huge amount of theorycrafting and testing being done on BM. As Sofina points out MM and Survival have better focus dumps its probably not worth using for those specs.
    Post edited by Zoriana at 2011-02-06 14:06:55
  • Agreed with Sofi and Zor. Kill Command is probably the lowest priority focus dump in a raid/dungeon setting, and not useful soloing if you are not BM. I've read that Explosive trap with Multi-shot on a misdirect to the tank is a nice AoE type pull if you aren't CCing.
  • So trap-dancing is no more then? That's what I was curious about.

    On my survival hunter (orc), since multi-shot also multi-stings, after opening a CC pull with a long-distance freezy trap, the tank pulls all the mobs into the foreground, I hit my misdirect to tank macro, smack two multi-shots in quick succession on the active mobs, and even with crazy pug DPSers hitting the wrong mob, tank is holding everything like a dream and thinks he's a god.

    Later when that MD wears off and the aggro returns to me, I just FD if I need to drop it.

    I haven't had one of my multi-shots break CC yet. I seem to recall some patch notes awhile back about this being intentional, but I always try to make sure my trapped one isn't in the same location as the ones I'm multi-shooting anyway out of paranoia. Is my paranoia misplaced?
  • I haven't had one of my multi-shots break CC yet. I seem to recall some patch notes awhile back about this being intentional, but I always try to make sure my trapped one isn't in the same location as the ones I'm multi-shooting anyway out of paranoia. Is my paranoia misplaced?

    This was the case in 3.x. It may no longer be the case in 4.x given that CC now matters as I think they removed the AI that prevented cleave type spells hitting CC'd targets.
  • update on this: I stung my own trapped naga-spellslinger with a multi-shot. Paranoia is required.

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