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Prot Mastery and Avoidance and DR.
  • Over in the patch thread we were talking about reforging to mastery. Mastery in prot is a very good thing as it smooths out the damage making us much more healable. That said, looking at my gear (and assuming I'm understanding the math) I'm not going to start reforging for mastery quite yet. (At least not avoidance stats.) The relevant math can be found in this page in an EJ post:

    179.28 mastery rating would bring you 1.5% critical block.
    176.71899 dodge would bring you 1% pre dr avoid.

    1% pre DR avoid is 1% damage reduction all the time (independent of shield block - pre DR)
    1.5% critical block is 0.642% damage reduction (before shield block)

    So when does avoidance DR to under 64% efficiency?
    ~2500 of an avoidance rating.

    averaging in shield block, requires closer to 3000 of an avoidance rating to balance.

  • The problem with that is it doesn't take "healer twitch" into account. While the sheer numbers say it's not smart to reforge before a certain point a lot of veteran tanks have been pointing out that it's better to take a non-streaky steady damage curve to allow healers to use their mana-efficient spells rather than take a lesser amount of damage in more spikes; not only does it make a healer panic and use less efficient spells to heal you but it also opens the possibility of a streak where you take lots of unmitigateds. So in other words while you technically take more damage before a certain point by reforging mastery over parry/dodge it's actually a much better curve for the healers to deal with and ends up helping their mana more.

    As an aside I admit I don't take EJ seriously on tanking any more; I've found Tankspot to be far more accurate and unbiased when it comes to the numbers, and they also tend to show the numbers/scenarios better rather than relying on opinion. To each their own, but I'd pick TS over EJ every day of the week and twice on Sunday ;)

    EDIT: BTW, this only applies to tanking; for some reason EJ is much more current on DPS. If I wanted to research DPS I'd use EJ, if I wanted to research Tanking I generally use Tankspot. The two forums seem to excel in different areas.
    Post edited by Maloch at 2011-01-09 02:16:03
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • During WoTLK I totally would have agreed with you but Tankspot has been very slow coming on line with theorycrafting for tanking this expansion. I do see more threads coming up but for a while there was very very little to see. The DPS info on the other hand, at least for fury, has been great on Tankspot.

    That said, what you mention is true - mastery smooths the damage and that is easier for healers. Right now I'm focusing more on fixing the gear that needs upgrades (far too much) and am still running with a heroics style spec. Around Tuesday (hopefully 2-4 pieces of gear upgraded by then) I'll probably start more extensively exploring reforging, fixing a few gems and fixing up my spec. (Oh yeah, and getting enchants.)
  • Is it just me or is it really hard to get hit capped. It also seems impossible to get parry off the table. I have Dodge covered and down to 1% chance not to hit but still have a 7% chance to parry.
  • Hit is really low right now. What I've seen on the prot warrior discussions is that people are dropping gag order (our silence talent) because hit is so low that we miss enough to make it useless. Apparently the low hit/expertise isn't causing big threat problems, (I never understand this one), so the advice seems to be not to worry.

    I currently have an Eye of Raj as one of my trinkets (hit) but if I get a better prot trinket I probably will be dropping it.
  • Funny... I use the other Eye of Raj for the expertise. We have 3 total 346 level leather items with expertise.

    Hit hasn't been too much problem. I float between 5 and 6%

    I think after tomorrows damage nerfs, hit and expertise may be more crucial as our threat drops.
    Post edited by constanza at 2011-01-10 13:22:26
  • I've always approached tank gearing as a quest for balance.

    Too much threat buffing and you start taking a lot of damage. Too much damage reduction and you can't hold aggro.

    I'm trying to take some hit buffs and some expertise buffs as well as some damage reduction buffs, and that includes both avoidance and absorption.

    What I don't like about the math is that it assumes things about the stats of other players that are only sometimes true. If you don't stack hit and you go up against a dps that's managed to hit cap, you won't hold aggro. If you don't stack avoidance and your healer is a little undergeared or still has a small mana pool, you might die. In fact, if your healer is undergeared and has a small mana pool, if you don't hold aggro you're likely to die.

    You can't be guaranteed that in every group, the gear of the players will be equivalent to the tank's gear, so you need to be versatile. That's why I'm stacking hit, expertise, stam, dodge, parry, and mastery, leaning towards avoidance but not treating it as the only valuable stats.

    That said, I'm not going to reforge from dodge to mastery but I might reforge haste to dodge and crit to mastery.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • EJ has been recommending forgoing hit and expertise cap for mastery with paladins. Not like it's possible right now to get anywhere near hit cap without sacrificing a lot of avoidance.
    I love gnomes.
  • Bears are advised to reforge into dodge at all costs. With the ridiculous amount of worthless haste on our gear, there's no shortage of crap to get rid of
  • Non of that on plate, unless I'm using DPS gear. So it's either sacrifice hit, expertise, dodge, parry or mastery.
    I love gnomes.
  • I've yet to find myself with any kind of threat problem, save for zealous DPS burning down single targets that aren't marked/out of order. And they can eat it then :) Survival and helping the healer maintain mana on the other hand has been a tad rougher.
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • I don't know if I can handle the idea of not having enough hit or expertise. We shall see what the future brings, I guess.

    As for dropping gag order, well.. that's just weird and I absolutely can't fathom it.
  • Keep in mind that I'm using hit gear and enchants and my hit is 4.7. My expertise is in single digits. Without stacking it, I'd probably be at 3% hit which is just not going to cut it against DPS that's trying really hard to get to the hit cap.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • I haven't really put any effort into those stats and I think Moonglo is around 6% to hit and ~20 expertise? I'm sure it'll get worse once I level from 84-85 (hopefully today).
  • Yeah dropping gag order is something I can't bring myself to do. It is sooo useful in some pulls where you have 3 casters and can only cc 1. Even with a raiding focused spec I'm expecting to continue running heroics so that is not going away and I'm not fully ready to drop both Blood & Thunder and Thunderstruck. Although Impending Victory does have appeal. I do use Victory Rush in heroics so having it available on boss fights would be nice.
  • The only advantage to Victory Rush that I can see is that it doesn't take any rage to use it. I don't think that it has a threat multiplier and it doesn't hit amazingly hard compared to some of our other abilities, so if you have tons of rage then I don't get it. Right now I have no rage, so maybe it'd be a good thing. Maybe I'm missing something, but:

    The 5% heal seems like it'd be fun, but we're talking about 8k health on a 160k tank right now. I don't think that it's a big enough heal often enough to "save the day" or anything. Given that it's only available half of the time when a boss is almost dead (below 20%) and requires a Devastate plus an extra GCD to do *AND* costs two talent points to get. Yuck, bad talent that probably looks great on paper - that's my opinion.
  • PS - I should read what the "experts" say before voicing my opinion, so I fully expect someone to tell me that I'm completely wrong, lol!
  • Yroa, victory rush is a 20% heal unless there have been some changes in this patch, and with glyph of victory rush, it's a default 30% heal. I think it can crit as well because I popped victory rush heals greater than 50%. It's possible that was a bug but I've seen it several times. Once it did actually save a trash wipe because the healer was out of mana.

    Yeah, it's not going to be awesome against bosses that don't spawn adds, but I've had it proc on the boss fight in Grim Batol that spawns troggs.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • Victory Rush is a 5% heal when you're relying on it to proc in combat vs. a boss via Impending Victory, which is what I thought that they were talking about.
  • When I've been noodling with specs I've really only considered giving it one point since improved revenge becomes less valuable in the patch freeing up 2 points. That said - they might be better served by putting them in blood craze or some such.
  • Are they dumping revenge because warrior tanking has too many buttons or because they are making a mistake?
  • They're (re: other warrior tanks) dumping it because the TPS is frankly favoring Devastate and shield slam spam. Using Revenge is actually a TPS loss, even fully kitted out with talents. If you mean devs, no one knows, and there is much gnashing of teeth at warriors becoming easier to play.

    Victory Rush is great on trash packs and bosses with adds that trigger it, and Impending Victory becomes tolerable in the patch. Even weaving in IV into the Devastate spam it still beats Revenge for TPS.

    Also be sure you differentiate between "Impending Victory" and "Victory Rush" as there's a massive difference in the amount the two heal ;)
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • From the other thread:

    Maloch said:

    Oh, and Z, the numbers are in: prot warriors should be reforging and stacking mastery as much as possible. It evens out the damage a lot and gives us our infinite rage back, since we'll be blocking so much. I hope to tank a heroic soon with regemmed Mastery gems and reforged to check it out, but from my experiences so far I'd have to agree with the 'masters' on Tankspot about it.

    Does that mean that we should be reforging dodge or parry into mastery, and gemming into only mastery when you can, regardless of what your ratings for either 3 are?

    I also read that because Vengeance is so OP right now, low hit and low expertise are kinda a non- issue?
    Post edited by Allynn at 2011-01-17 16:18:07
  • I've reforged EVERYTHING, including parry and dodge, into mastery and slotted gems that are either pure mastery or mixed colors with mastery. According to Harpin, who's been healing me the entire time as my gear evolved, it's gotten easier and easier due to my damage intake leveling off. I'm taking more damage, but it's less streaky thus allowing her to use more efficient spells. It's not dodge/dodge/parry/big hit/big hit/dead it's /block/block/big hit/block/dodge/parry/block. Random hits pulled out my bum, but it has seemed to be good.

    In regards to hit and expertise, today I was losing a bit of threat to Rakka and Jexxi during our heroic tonight, but they're high DPSers and they were going full bore from the word 'go' so not sure either of those stats could have made a difference.
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • I see now why Mastery is such a huge deal for bears too. In those times when I couldn't swing at Omnicron due to shields I was far harder to heal. No swing, no crit, no shield.

    However we still reforge into dodge and look for crit/mastery gear almost exclusively, which is why my hit and expertise suck so bad.
  • While during a heroic I would be fine with just smoother damage I'm not sure smoother at the cost of more damage is something that will work in raiding at my current gear level. That said once the stats get high enough reforging into mastery makes sense.

    The articles and pretty graphs from TS are at the below links:

    Analysing the Benefits [TS] Critical Block Mechanics [TS]

    A few more upgrades and I can start thinking about reforging.
  • I think a smoother damage curve is beneficial at any gear level. Mastery for both warriors and paladins is great, but until you've got an average gear level of 359 (and possibly not even at that point) it will be very difficult to reach the magic 102.4 avoidance number. Up to that point, mastery is still good, but not at the total expense of dodge or parry.

    I'd consider reforging any gear at iLevel 333 or above. The problem I ran into was that even with hit/exp or stam/exp gems I still needed to reforge to get near the hit and exp caps. granted, I still had room to reforge a number of pieces to mastery, but not as much as I'd like.
    But I need tacos! I need them or I will explode. That happens to me sometimes.
  • What I'm seeing on the threads is people are not even worrying about hit/expertise. Whatever is on the gear is what they have. This leaves the rest of enchant/gem etc. To be for some balance of dodge/parry/stam/mastery (or dodge/stam/mastery).

    I definitely advocate mastery - I even have enchants for mastery - I just don't know that I would reforge dodge/parry to mastery _yet_ on my current gear.
  • I am loving mastery as a tank. With food buff I have 50% chance to block and still have about 12% for Dodge and parry. I generally reforge any item without mastery and pick the largest state to reforge to mastery.
  • Zurena said:

    What I'm seeing on the threads is people are not even worrying about hit/expertise. Whatever is on the gear is what they have. This leaves the rest of enchant/gem etc. To be for some balance of dodge/parry/stam/mastery (or dodge/stam/mastery).

    I definitely advocate mastery - I even have enchants for mastery - I just don't know that I would reforge dodge/parry to mastery _yet_ on my current gear.

    Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder if the paladin thread at EJ is off the mark with hit/exp cap. I'm considering letting mine drop a bit to see what happens. I'd rather stack mastery and stam if I can live without the hit and exp.
    But I need tacos! I need them or I will explode. That happens to me sometimes.
  • I am having no issues with threat with only 3% hit, expertise is at 19 with the glyph.
    I love gnomes.

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