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Arrogant, SOB...
  • Amazing the attitude coming from the controller manufacturer... really unbelievable.

    http://penny-arcade.com/resources/just-wow1.html
    Post edited by Arzozah at 2011-12-27 18:23:19
  • I really like that his website has been on the internet since before it was the internet.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • :O

    Just...Wow!
    There exist only three respectable beings: the priest, the warrior, the poet. To know, to kill, and to create. -Charles Baudelaire
  • Harpin said:

    :O

    Just...Wow!


    You took the words out my my mouth.

  • swirly said:

    I really like that his website has been on the internet since before it was the internet.


    1998 is pretty late in the game to be calling it 'before the Internet'. Especially for oldtimers such as myself who remember the bulletin board and Compuserve days. ;)
  • I'm really curios how bad the backlash is gonna be.
  • Honestly? I would hope it's bad, but I agree with Dave (with a V!) that it would be sad for the kids or people with disabilities to not have access to something that might enhance their gaming experience.
    There exist only three respectable beings: the priest, the warrior, the poet. To know, to kill, and to create. -Charles Baudelaire
  • I dont think it's that crazy. Sort of typical internet escalation. Guy was pissed at another guy who has no control over shipping from overseas... and it escalates. I understand why they both get angry, tbh.

  • 1998 is pretty late in the game to be calling it 'before the Internet'. Especially for oldtimers such as myself who remember the bulletin board and Compuserve days. ;)



    Well, he meant on the web but 1998 was still not before the web. I've had my domain since 1998 too. Whoopity doo.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • thujo said:

    I dont think it's that crazy. Sort of typical internet escalation. Guy was pissed at another guy who has no control over shipping from overseas... and it escalates. I understand why they both get angry, tbh.



    You don't see a problem with a company telling a customer to go eff themselves? If you sent Blizzard an email cause your account got hacked and they said "Well I guess your SOL, better luck next time idiot." I would cancel my account and smear them every chance I got.
  • Shockingly, this is not the first problem with Ocean Marketing.

    As he was already told, "welcome to the internet."

    He's apparently started begging for the "spam" to stop.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • I love the way his "apology" to Mike @ Penny Arcade starts:
    I just wanted to apologize for the way our emails progressed I didn’t know how big your site was and I really didn’t believe you ran Pax
    In other words, "I'm only sorry I was being a dick because it turns out you were actually in a position to bring me some bad publicity and I'm too stupid to realize that's not what I'm supposed to be apologizing for."
    Post edited by Lurzmog at 2011-12-28 00:54:19
    Spencer Cross AKA Lurzmog | Balkhmog | Gobhoblin
  • Jello said:

    thujo said:

    I dont think it's that crazy. Sort of typical internet escalation. Guy was pissed at another guy who has no control over shipping from overseas... and it escalates. I understand why they both get angry, tbh.



    You don't see a problem with a company telling a customer to go eff themselves? If you sent Blizzard an email cause your account got hacked and they said "Well I guess your SOL, better luck next time idiot." I would cancel my account and smear them every chance I got.

    No I see a problem with someone saying that. And I see a problem with Dave calling him a bitch and being the first person to start name-calling. Both of them are in the wrong, but I can see why both of them are angry at each other.


  • From: Dave
    To: Ocean Marketing
    Dec 26, 2011, at 9:47 AM

    I noticed the updated info on the webpage, and I don’t understand why there is absolutely no benefit given to those like me who have already ordered, and paid their money. You’ve had my money interest free for nearly two months, yet now ANY new order will get $10 off….meaning I should just cancel my order for 2 controllers, get my money back, then re-order.

    My other questions is regarding item compatibility. Ocean Marketing seems to be involved with the Xtendplay controller holder, so I was wondering if the Avenger N-Controller can be used in conjunction with the Xtendplay (for both Xbox and PS3)? Thanks


    From: Ocean Marketing
    To: Dave
    Dec 26, 2011 10:14 AM

    Yes it can be used with xtend play if you remove the stand and no one is allowed to cancel and re order if we catch anyone doing it we will simply just cancel your order all together and you can buy it retail somewhere else.

    Things happen in manufacturing if your unhappy you have 7 days from the day your item ships for a refund. You placed a pre order just like any software title the gets a date moved due to the tweaks and bugs not being worked out and GameStop or any other place holds your cash and im sure you don’t complain to activision or epic games so put on your big boy hat and wait it out like everyone else. The benefit is a token of our appreaciation for everyone no one is special including you or any first time buyer . Feel free to cancel we need the units were back ordered 11,000 units so your 2 will be gone fast. Maybe I’ll put them on eBay for 150.00 myself. Have a good day Dan.

    At this point Dave is (I think) understandably frustrated. His next email is sent to me as well as Kotaku and a few other news sites.

    -Gabe



    From: Dave
    To: Ocean Marketing
    Dec 26, 2011 12:11 PM

    Then cancel my order if you want to. I’m making a legitimate complaint about your poor communication and you’re the one stooping to childish levels, a patronizing attitude, and threats. Hell you can’t even get the spelling of my name right.

    And Gamespot pre-orders…wow what a terrible comparison. Retailers take a couple dollars IF THAT for you to guarantee your game availability on the release date, whatever that is. That’s the understanding and that’s what you get. Plus, I don’t have to complain to Activision or Epic games about these issues because they’re usually not missing the street dates for their AAA titles.

    Now let’s take YOUR situation:
    1) You’ve promised a new product based off the design for an existing, working product
    2) For the longest time, you’ve stated on your website (your failure to update regularly is another issue) the initial/special/limited batch of your new product by early December, obviously in time for the all-important holiday gift-giving season. I and thousands of other customers GIVE YOU OUR MONEY, INTEREST FREE on the promises you made online.
    3) I reach out to you, on Dec 16 (AFTER you have FAILED TO MEET YOUR ADVERTISED DEADLINE AND FAILED TO COMMUNICATE TO ANYONE WHAT THE SITUATION IS) obviously a little frustrated but more curious about when I and other customers can expect the product we paid for.
    4) Your reply to me is a cryptic “Dec 17” with absolutely no explanation of what that means. In the mean time you having been using funds from pre-paid customers to complete Research & Development, product redesigns, and manufacturing mis-steps.
    5) You force me to follow-up with an email asking for clarification about what “Dec 17” means since the day has passed and I have yet to receive any new information about my order. Now you instead of ANSWERING MY QUESTION OF WHAT THE NEW DELIVERY DATE IS, you tell me the goods have yet to leave China… Why are you telling me this? I’m not your employee I’m your goddamn customer! TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS IN TERMS OF MY TIME AND WHEN I CAN EXPECT MY PRODUCT I PAID FOR.
    6) So great…I have to email you AGAIN trying to get a CLEAR answer from you whether a Dec 24th delivery date is possible and if not, what the new date is. Rinse & repeat: You give me an update of the delivery process (wow, thanks…you haven’t told me anything I don’t know about the order of international shipping procedures) but instead say “...so its wither before or after Christmas.” WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN? GIVE ME A DATE!? One that you’re actually going to follow, because I already see “late Nov to early Dec”; “Dec 17”; and now “CHRISTMAS” in my rear-view mirror.
    7) So I guess what’s left for me to do but just wait? Oh but what’s this, you’ve updated your website…Ok at least you’ve clarified the dates more, I can expect my controller my latest first week of January. But now as a “token of our appreciation” to all your “loyal customers” (you mean like customers who put up cash for you hold an use?) you’re giving a $10 coupon. Let me get this straight…so you held my money interest free for 2 months to help bring this product to market, and now some new customer can place an order and pay $10 less than what I paid? You have financially penalized me in two ways for being a “LOYAL CUSTOMER.”

    I’m SURE you’re getting tons of other inquiries and I’m sure you’re not enjoying the fact that your product is not out when you wanted it to be. I and everyone else understands that “sh*t happens,” but if you want us to be understanding of that, then you need to keep us in the loop. You’ve already set yourself up for failure by making explicit promises that aren’t even “likely” given that the design and manufacturing are still be refined. Then you make sure you’re going to fail by actually taking all of our money, Not just a little bit….THE WHOLE F*CKIN BEEFALO. Why wouldn’t we trust that you’re going to deliver our merchandise on time? Besides…it’s based off an existing product so how hard can it be? Well as your youtube video shows, making any consumer device is hard and requires many iterations and improvements. But I’m not going to apologize for holding your feet to the fire. You created these expectations by acting like the release was already a done deal and by hiding the fact that it was faaaar from it.

    I want my two n-controllers. I 1) PAID FOR THEM 2) WAITED 3) DEALT WITH YOUR UNHELPFUL ASS. I also didn’t want to feel like my trust and loyalty as a customer was being abused and then actually punished in comparison to other customers. But I guess we can’t have it all… so right now I’ll settle for getting my merchandise and hopefully never having to deal with you again. I’ve spent enough time writing this email which I hope you gain some insight from. If you actually do want to screw me over by not fulfilling my order, then I assure you be hearing more from me or people representing me.

    You show a surprising lack of business polish for someone who’s quite established, AND an lack of awareness of your customer base: Hardcore gamers. We’re a demanding, vocal customer but the flip side is we’re loyal and eager to spend. It’s lucky for you that I really want this product because it seems really deliver on making the gaming experience more effective and enjoyable. Hell, I want to combine the aventer-controller with the xtend play to make the ugliest, most comfortable, most awesome controller ever. And I’ll still buy the xtend, so let that be a testament to your products, the rise above your poor representation.

    -DAVE with a V

    p.s. You look really douchy be having one youtube video complaining about the noise of traffic next to your home and then another video showing off your obnoxiously loud rice rocket (which is nice, I gotta hand it ya).

    p.p.s. Welcome to the internet, bitch. That’s how I roll.
    Post edited by thujo at 2011-12-28 01:00:44
  • Clearly you can see the escalation makes a big jump with Dave's reply. Very big. He comes across with very much of an "entitlement" attitude to me. I just think it is a bit unreasonable, especially concerning shipping around Christmas time. I understand why he is frustrated, but the method of delivery is less than ideal.

    But that's just me.
  • Click on Swirly's link above for updates on the aftermath. What a day.
    There exist only three respectable beings: the priest, the warrior, the poet. To know, to kill, and to create. -Charles Baudelaire
  • so glad to see this wasn't about me!
  • thujo said:

    Clearly you can see the escalation makes a big jump with Dave's reply. Very big. He comes across with very much of an "entitlement" attitude to me. I just think it is a bit unreasonable, especially concerning shipping around Christmas time.



    He purchased a product. The product was not shipped when it was supposed to be shipped. He asked customer service for an estimate on the shipping date, got a response that at best was wrong, asked again for an update, and was told to cancel his order if he's not happy (but only 7 days after it has shipped, with no ship date in sight, which is questionably legal), then had customer service threaten to defraud him of his order by selling it on eBay instead.

    He is the customer and if an order has twice missed its shipping estimate, he is ENTITLED to an update with accurate information, that is devoid of insults and threats.

    If you think that that's him having a bad attitude, I'm just going to have to disagree.

    Yes, the escalation makes a big jump with Dave's reply and Dave's reply was completely warranted.
    Post edited by swirly at 2011-12-28 02:04:33
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • I understand Dave's frustration and I don't blame him for being angry, and on a scale of 0 to 10 where 0 is not to blame for this mess and 10 is completely at fault, Dave is a .1 in my eyes and Paul whoever from Ocean is a 9.9. But, I do see Thujo's point about Dave calling the guy an ass, douchy, and a bitch. In my opinion, that's a bad attitude and unprofessional. And while Dave has no obligation to be professional, I doubt it helped any that he chose the language he did.

    Again, just my opinion, and not an indictment of Dave, but I do think his choice of words may have escalated the situation, and when first reading it I noticed the same things Thujo noticed.

    It's like when someone is a dick in WoW, and the person being dicked with responds in kind, and then says "well, I'm not part of the problem, I haven't done anything wrong." Just because you're justified in your anger doesn't make it a good idea.

    My 2 credits, anyway.
    a/k/a Victarious
  • Hahahahahaha*takes breath*hahahaha.
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • you guys gonna be at NAMBLA this year?
  • When dealing with friends, I don't mind the pissing contest escalation like we've seen here. When in business, I don't care what names my customers call me, I'm going to "yes sir" "no ma'am" then to death. I'll cuss them out when I hang up the phone, but I'm always going to be professional.

    Now that I think of it, I'm the same when I am the customer, too. All of this could have been avoided by being good at CS.
  • There exist only three respectable beings: the priest, the warrior, the poet. To know, to kill, and to create. -Charles Baudelaire
  • Am I the only one that thinks that airing this dirty laundry publicly is taking it a bit over the top?

    I mean, I get being angry, but to use your website to pound someone into the ground... over an item that wasnt shipped in time, and ensueing email exchanges? Seems way over the top. I guess I'm not finding it funny, or even approriate to post the exchange publicly, whether or not Dave was justified.
  • thujo said:

    Am I the only one that thinks that airing this dirty laundry publicly is taking it a bit over the top?



    I think you are. 'Airing dirty laundry' makes it sound like some sort of personal spat which this isn't. Someone bought something, paid for it in full, it was late, he asked politely about an update and got the runaround and then rudeness. Yes the original sender probably shouldn't have started calling that jerk names but as a consumer, going public is a great tool against an asshole semi-fraudulent vendor. What this character (the Ocean STRATAGIES guy) was doing is not just lame but runs afoul with the law in many places. Try taking money for something with no definite (or very late) ship date with a paypal account and see what happens. This isn't a couple of people disagreeing vehemently over Star Trek episodes. It's one side committing borderline fraud and then being a complete ass about it. And not for the first time. He deserves precisely what he got.
  • hronk said:

    This isn't a couple of people disagreeing vehemently over Star Trek episodes. It's one side committing borderline fraud and then being a complete ass about it. And not for the first time. He deserves precisely what he got.


    Wow, we have vastly different ideas of fraud. I see late shipping around christmas time, with a guy that is upset because he didnt get his gaming controller. For me, I would expect the possiblity of it coming late, being christmas time with lots of competing deadlines and competing shipping, being that I pre-ordered it in advance giving lots of time for things to not go smoothly.

    Both of them were asses, it wasn't close to fraud, and touting negative PR as a weapon to a controller that didnt make it in time is just crazy.
  • This is not pre-ordering something from Amazon. It's a new device just being built. It was ordered and paid for in full 6 weeks before the expected delivery date. Essentially, in a situation like that, you're doing the vendor a favour by advancing money. The very least they owe you is an explanation (without prompting) of any delay. And I didn't say it's fraud, it said 'borderline'. It's definitely lame and quickly starts edging into fishy - as I said this is not, like the dude says 'just my opinion, man', it's something you can find out for yourself very quickly with a paypal or merchant account. You can marginalize the guy's reaction all you want about it being 'a gaming controller', it's completely irrelevant. He paid money. He wanted an update - one which he was really already owed. He got gibberish and rudeness in return well before he started anything. And negative PR is one of the very few effective tools a consumer has in this situation. The other one is chargebacks, which, often are worse for the vendor and he didn't threaten to do that, even. You keep misrepresenting this as some entitled guy who just happened to order, I dunno, a new HD from Newegg and it got tied up in a UPS warehouse for a few days and he started stomping his foot and crying.
  • hronk said:

    You keep misrepresenting this as some entitled guy who just happened to order, I dunno, a new HD from Newegg and it got tied up in a UPS warehouse for a few days and he started stomping his foot and crying.



    Which is basically what the Ocean Marketting guy is claiming. You just believed that what he stated as facts were facts, despite obvious ill intent and a written threat to defraud this specific customer.

    According to the facts stated by the other guy, which this was a "new" product, it was not a version 1 product. It was more of a dot release of hardware. Maybe they found a big bug and fixed it and that set back production, but if that is the case and the customer asks for an update, the right response would be to say "We're so sorry about this but we found a problem with the controller and it set back our release date. Barring any further complications, we're expecting delivery to our site near [date] and will be shipping out to you within days of arrival." An appropriate response is not "since you are insisting on a release date for a product that's missed its release date twice now, like the big baby you are, I'm going to sell your controllers on eBay instead. TAKE THAT!"

    As a customer, if you see repeated delays like this, accompanied by lack of vendor response, rude vendor response, etc. the assumption will rightly be that something fishy is going on. To top that with condescension and threats?

    That's unacceptable.

    And you know, even after that, the Ocean Marketting guy was given a chance to fix it. He was warned. He was told who he was speaking to and what the consequences would be if he didn't fix it and what did he do? He said to bring it on.

    Well, it was brought on. Hoist, meet petard.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • Wow, I just dont get where you are coming from.

    4 emails from Dave, trying to hammer out a time when he will get his controller.

    He'd be lucky to get one answer, in all honesty, with time of year and everything else with where it's going from.

    I guess some people pick one side more than the other. I guess I'm not willing to do that, but certainly feel free to lay in as much on him as you want. Wow. Just wow :P
  • Thujo you are just way more understanding and fair minded than I could ever be in this situation.

    4 emails or 40. Dave could have called his mother every name in the book. No matter who you are and no matter the situation, a representative of a company has no right to speak that way to any customer. Period. And the president of a company... as Paul Christoforo was, should be able to divorce himself completely from his emotions when interacting with a dissatisfied customer. He was wrong and he's paying the price.
    Post edited by Arzozah at 2011-12-29 02:45:11
  • It's cool, I just see it differently. I just dont think there is anything that could be done about manufacturing or shipping, even with an ETA. Both of them were jerks. Sort of sums it up for me. I'll leave it at that.
  • I agree, they both were jerks, and one of them lost his job, and for some reason everyone is forgetting that now he is unemployed and way too many people across the planet are thinking very awful thoughts about him, even though they never met or interacted with him. He may be having a bad time in his life (pretty common this time of year). His job may be driving him crazy (working in that role for a company having trouble getting a product to market can't be fun). Sure, he could have handled things better, but how much more rewarding would it be to the customer if some overseas response center was just sending out canned responses with no information in them by people that don't even know what is going on.

    I am not saying he was a misunderstood angel, but the escalation and glee some folks have on his ill fortune isn't very cool either. Next time you are having a shitty day and say something you probably shouldn't, I hope it isn't to some jackass that decides to smash you to oblivion with the internet nerd-hammer. On the other hand, I would find it very appropriate if EVERYTHING the "customer" bought for the next few years showed up a tad bit smelly from being rubbed affectionately by the folks processing his order.
  • ...and one of them lost his job...
    Except he didn't. Ocean Marketing is his company. He just lost a client.
    Spencer Cross AKA Lurzmog | Balkhmog | Gobhoblin
  • Having worked customer service for a lot of years I had plenty of moments when I wanted to tell a customer to go eff themselves but I didn't because it was my job to satisfy the customer. Even if a customer started losing their cool it was MY JOB to be professional not theirs. If you are getting paid to do a job and you fail to succeed then you deserve the repercussions. If I am a pilot and my job is to land a plane safely and I don't, there are going to be severe consequences due to me failing to do my job. I have also been at the other end of customer service and had a hard time biting my tongue.

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