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has anyone else noticed threat issues since 4.3?
  • I've been doing some experimenting on both the tanking side and the DPS side and I've found that I'm losing aggro on mobs again while tanking and pulling aggro off tanks while dpsing. Granted, since I've been experimenting with it, I've been trying to pull aggro on Swirly, but doing 2-3 times the dps of the tank, I'm pulling aggro.

    I'm having melee pull aggro off of me while tanking fairly frequently. I have noticed that it happens more often when dps are targeting the wrong add, but keeping up rend with thunderclap and spamming cleave is no longer holding aggro when dps targets the wrong add. With the 5x multiplier, that wasn't a problem.

    I'm honestly wondering if among the 4.3 tanking bugs if the 5x multiplier change was accidentally rolled back.

    I'll be recruiting test subjects for a threat assessment run later today. Something really seems off.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • Ooh! Recruit me!

    To your point, no, I had not noticed, but I've been pretty well behaved since 4.3. But I have been using HB/D&D with no incident.
    a/k/a Victarious
  • On Durthane I am not having any threat issues...
    I used to care... now I take a pill for that...

    In partnership for an idiot-free America...

    Tanks are the only Class/Spec that makes you fight NPCs and members of your group at the same time.
  • Haven't noticed any change; then again I barely noticed the 500% change /shrug
    The chintacle can sense fear.
  • A lot of LFD melee toons are making a massive jump from 353 or 359 gear to 378 and this is especially true for 378 weapons since weapon damage drives melee dps (shhh, enh shamans). On top of that, melee's AP buff from AP buff providers is now 20%. So yeah, when someone whacks the nonprimary target for 50k, a TC and a rend tick isn't going to keep it glued to you.
  • Say it ain't so! I'm just about to dust Moonglo off and start tanking again, I don't like the sounds of "rouge down!" or "danger kat ded!" in my groups :(

    Then again, I'll be tanking in normal normals, so ... it shouldn't be too bad. I love the "new" warrior tanking compared to post-BC. Really enjoyed BC tanking ... yes, even mashing the shield block button every few seconds (so much so that the paint wore off the key) was more fun for me that Wrath tanking.
  • I'm using threat plates, so I'm getting warnings before I lose aggro, which allows me to pick up the lost aggro faster. That said, I'm getting groups with 3 dps all hitting the wrong mob, especially "gee there's a squishy caster in the group that does massive aoe damage that needs to be interrupted? I think I'll hit this plate melee dude. He looks tasty," leaving me running around picking up melee while the casters fire aoe and kill us.

    I'm cleaving too, Hronk. Combo rend, thunderclap on every cooldown, cleave on every cooldown isn't holding aggro AND I lost aggro to you last night on the mob that I was shield slamming with +fire damage shield slam. If I remember correctly, both Hronk and Frickle pulled aggro on Asira Dawnslayer while I was repositioning her, which simply should not happen on a boss unless you are way outdpsing me. Yes, Hronk popped a 51k crit on her against Blivit and that 51k crit was more than 5x my overall dps but one crit like that shouldn't pop the boss off of me, even during a reposition. Your overall was about twice mine and it wasn't near the beginning of the fight.

    It's happening at sometimes 2x overall dps, and against enough melee classes that I've resorted to checking buffs midfight to ensure that they aren't in tank mode. I'll grant that there are DKs who don't like moving and thus taunt things off of the tank, and there are mages pulling 53k overall in HoT, but I'm not including those cases.

    I've also been getting threat warnings and pulling aggro on Swirly and she's usually doing less than 20k dps.
    Post edited by swirly at 2011-12-09 17:26:28
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • If they are not able to assist... then let it kill them. I used to have a macro with a message about that... if you break CC or if you target another MoB than I am... it is yours...
    I used to care... now I take a pill for that...

    In partnership for an idiot-free America...

    Tanks are the only Class/Spec that makes you fight NPCs and members of your group at the same time.
  • swirly said:

    If I remember correctly, both Hronk and Frickle pulled aggro on Asira Dawnslayer while I was repositioning her, which simply should not happen on a boss unless you are way outdpsing me. Yes, Hronk popped a 51k crit on her against Blivit and that 51k crit was more than 5x my overall dps but one crit like that shouldn't pop the boss off of me, even during a reposition. Your overall was about twice mine and it wasn't near the beginning of the fight.



    Melee got buffed, melee's got a lower threat cap, etc, etc. Some melee (e.g. dps warriors, enh shamans) can be extremely bursty and lack threat dumps. Asira is a highly mobile fight so if you just happened to outrange her while moving her and I hit deathwish/reck/trinket + colossus smash and a zillion instants, for a few gcds a lot more happens than one 50k crit. It's conceivable in that situation a mob might turn around and slap me in the snout. That's why I wear safety goggles and that's why you have a taunt. This has happened to me even with Mercy "I've never had a threat problem" Killer and it's totally normal. It's not a threat problem.

    A threat problem is -

    Mob peels off and makes beeline for the healer.
    Melee constantly having to hold back on main target.

    I don't count ranged because they generally have aggro management abilities. So in this run, I think Waffle and I were doing roughly the right DPS for the gear, you were doing roughly the right threat, I never felt threat capped, I was never assaulted by 50 mobs while AoEing, the healer lived a long and productive life, everything seemed fine. Even at 500% threat bonus, you may occasionally have to taunt but is that really a problem?

    Post edited by hronk at 2011-12-09 23:44:25
  • That may be the nicest thing you've ever said.
  • No man, that may be the nicest thing you've ever said! /hugzies
    Post edited by hronk at 2011-12-10 13:37:31
  • Last night, I had a run of absolute imbeciles. I'm not counting threat problems caused by extreme stupidity; I just rant and drink more.

    At any rate, I did Ultraxion today on Swirly. Waited 3 seconds after the tank started punching it to start attacking. Waited another 3 arcane blasts to blow cooldowns (minus timewarp), so just under 15 seconds into the fight. Maybe ten seconds later, I had to stop dps. Took me about 1.5 seconds to take the screenshot base for the first section below, so my threat had dropped a little before the screenshot.

    AWOOOOOOGA AWOOOOOOOGA!

    I looked up the tank that I nearly pulled aggro on and his hit and expertise are wayyy low. That said, his actual number of misses was pretty low. He had 14 misses over the duration of the fight, including 4 white hit misses. It's not like he was swishing at the boss while I pounded the boss in the face. I hadn't done even twice his dps by that point; I had done under 20k overall dps in that less than 30 second period, and I'd held back until after he had an aggro lead.

    So let's say for the sake of argument that Hronk is right and that I went OMGIMFIRINMYLAZERS and pew pewed the boss in the face for 3 84k crits in a row (the max that I could have done in 10 seconds) after having done a couple of 60k crits; then I had to stop dps. And then let's acknowledge that Blizz's stated reason for bumping tank threat to 500% was so that tanks didn't have to worry about dps pulling things off of them and dps didn't have to stop dps or drop aggro during the fight. And let's further assume that they DIDN'T screw up and the threat bonus is still 500%.

    Then the 500% threat bonus for tanks is not accomplishing their goal.

    And prior to 4.3, it had accomplished their goal.

    No, it's not totally terrible if I have to taunt every so often. I expect to have to taunt sometimes. I even expect to have to taunt sometimes if everyone is behaving. But I do not think that it is an expected case that after a patch, dps changes are going to be so extreme that it will cause me to taunt frequently when I didn't have to taunt at all before the patch because Blizz made it so that I didn't have to taunt.

    The question isn't whether or not I have to taunt, but whether the math is working out. Right now, the math is not working out to adhere to their stated goal, which is why I think there might be a problem.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • What class is tanking? I know that Blivit is a Warrior... but what was this tank you are talking about now? It would not be the first time they screwed Warriors (why Olnir retired)... I am just curious.
    I used to care... now I take a pill for that...

    In partnership for an idiot-free America...

    Tanks are the only Class/Spec that makes you fight NPCs and members of your group at the same time.
  • There definately seems to be something iffy with threat right now. When I was tanking the new instances on Zoriana earlier I was noticing that even durning a full Berserk Mangle spam I was sitting around 300-400% threat (via the in-game meter). Prior to the patch I'd would typically be in the 800% range. I'm not sure if they've adjusted the reporting on the meter to account for the buff (it would frequently max out before) but it does seem strange.

    My theory is this. DPS has got it unto their brains that threat doesn't matter anymore. In the brain of your average LFD DPSer this means "Hey I can unload on any target as long as its something the tank has (maybe) tapped so its ok to go full bore, blow cool downs off the bat, cleave, anything to top the meters"). The problem is tanking mechanics don't work that way as there is a ramp up period where the tank is either limited by rage/GCD/Cooldowns in the case of Warriors and Bears, runes/GCD/Cooldowns in the case of DK's, or Cooldowns/GCDs in the case of Paladins. So while the dps are going at it hammer and tongs, the tank is still in ramp up mode and suddenly finds him or herself having to play catch up as soon as things come off cool down.

    AOE tanking is somewhat worse. With everything on a cool down if each of the dps is ignoring the mark and picking random targets, then things can go south rather quickly. In the case of Bears for example there is a 1.5 second drop out where Swipe is on cool down meaning that you have to fill using Glyphed Maul. On a >2 target pull this means that something isn't getting hit every 1.5 seconds (you'll have bleeds up from Thrash, but that doesn't help much when you have a Warlock standing in melee range going full out with Hellfire). Plus it's going to get worse as people gear up as increased haste adds extra ticks to channelled AOE spells. DKs and Paladins seem to have an easier time of it, Warrior fall somewhere in middle and Bears the hardest.

    To honest I'm not sure what the solution is. Another threat patch would probably keep things going until MoP, but once all tanks move to the active model its going to get worse because the ramp up time to build resources will potentially slow things down further. The other solution is to rework the dps rotations so they also have a ramp up time (and so can't go full bore straight off the pull) or add the cool downs back onto AOE spells so they can't be spammed (I find it curious that dps AOE spells these days have very few cool downs, while all the tanking ones do). The later wouldn't be popular given that people like the big numbers.
  • He was a pally. Pallies show up with a pink bar in omen and recount. Warriors are brown.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • The solution is for the tank to relax and let the DPS die if they pull a mob off them. It never fails to amaze me how many DPS still have NO CLUE about what a focus target is, or how to set up a focus frame on the tank. They made it mind-numbingly easy to set up over a year ago. I have mine macroed to F12. It's the first button I hit when I enter a new dungeon, whether healing or dpsing. If I'm not dpsing the tank's target, I expect to die.
  • f12 RTE? All the way over there??!

    :D
  • The solution is for the tank to relax and let the DPS die if they pull a mob off them. It never fails to amaze me how many DPS still have NO CLUE about what a focus target is, or how to set up a focus frame on the tank. They made it mind-numbingly easy to set up over a year ago. I have mine macroed to F12. It's the first button I hit when I enter a new dungeon, whether healing or dpsing. If I'm not dpsing the tank's target, I expect to die.



    The problem is that many tanks, good tanks and bad, tab target as a means of increasing AOE threat. I don't know if that's been gone away from recently, but I've encountered it all my WoW career. I do focus the tank and target their target; many times I find myself paying for it a second later. I don't care for focus target macros, either, as there are many situations where they can be detrimental.

    My thought on tanks is this: mark. Bind skull at the very least to an unused F key, so that we know your prime target. That way the tab targeting doesn't cause issues as we know your final destination. I've never raid tanked, but I've tanked my share of heroics and I never had an issue with marking, and I am ZOMG levels of lazy. If I can do it, anyone can.

    I agree with Geren that DPS have gotten into the mindset of "go nuts" following the threat buff; that threat doesn't matter anymore, and I also agree it's way worse on trash/AOE. DPS definitely need to give a two or three count before letting the nukes fly, even in the 500% era, and especially on trash.

    If DPS can learn a touch of patience (tanks/healers/fellow DPS should be gently yelling at the naughty ones IMO), and if tanks would mark targets, the world would be a safer place. Just my $0.02.

    EDIT: this is more of a "general discussion" post and not in response to the idea of there being something weird with threat ATM. I've no idea if something is bugged or not, nor would I hazard a guess. I have largely been good, and I haven't had problems.
    Post edited by Hoff at 2011-12-12 23:05:11
    a/k/a Victarious
  • I haven't graduated back to heroic tanking yet on Moonglo, but running normals and being over-geared for them has been pretty easy so far. This is all very interesting for when I go back to heroics, though.

    I second the idea of at least marking a skull. You can't make anyone target your target, but putting the skull on a mob removes any excuse the dps has. I just bind it to zero on the number pad, personally, so it's easy to put up without clicking a lot. Magic Marker used to be a good addon for marking groups, but I don't think it is updated for 4.0 or the new dungeons/raids.
  • thujo said:

    f12 RTE? All the way over there??!
    :D


    Yes, that way I don't accidently hit it while in combat. :)
    Even if the tank does tab target, it's still a good idea to keep a focus frame up, because if I'm pulling aggro, I can finish the cast I'm currently doing and then switch to the tank's new target in the blink of an eye. I won't peel the mob off the tank if I hit it only once, only if I keep hammering away on it. With the focus frame, even in aoe situations I can toss an arcane blast or two on the tank's current target and then finish up with arcane explosion and not pull aggro. :)
  • I do keep a FF up and I agree it is wise to do so, but in my experience marking targets in advance makes for much more controlled, much neater runs.
    Post edited by Hoff at 2011-12-13 01:45:02
    a/k/a Victarious
  • I've not tanked in 4.3, but as someone who has tanked my share of heroics since Northrend I'm a firm believer in marking targets. This is less of a concern in guild-only groups where I can count on people being reasonable and aware of my tendencies. That said, I still try to mark targets unless I'm well aware that I can hold threat on an entire group without much issue.

    Like Yroa, I bound my marks to hotkeys so I could quickly mark skull and X during combat to reflect changing targets. I also used a mod called Target Charms, which has been updated for 4.3. One of my favorite things about Target Charms is that is makes the Blizzard raid markers available to you in dungeons. These can be very helpful for describing situations to new friends and PuG idiots alike. i.e. "I'll be tanking the boss on the giant, glowing, red X. You can't miss it."

    All that said, if you're running with morons who can do nothing but AoE and pay no attention to anything but recount...well...welcome to WoW.
    But I need tacos! I need them or I will explode. That happens to me sometimes.
  • Did you say something Bell? Sorry, was looking at recount!
  • but but....my dps!
    image
  • Bellaluna said:

    All that said, if you're running with morons who can do nothing but AoE and pay no attention to anything but recount...well...welcome to WoW.



    Yes, this was the moron run in which I put everyone on ignore. Not only was it "the tank's fault" and "my warrior tank has never had this problem" when I "couldn't hold aggro" against a boomy aoeing before I pulled, the groups in question have a caster mob with a high damage aoe that has to be interrupted, which is why you single target it. They refused to single target even after I said why they needed to and started marking the casters with skull.

    I'm not talking about those groups and it's not just aoe aggro. In the case in the image above, that's the boss and there's no adds. I had to stop dps to keep from pulling aggro on a boss, 30 seconds into the fight when I had waited to dps, waited to pop cooldowns, and was doing less than twice the tank's overall dps.
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • Was in a random pubbie LFR today and paid close attention to the threat meter, didn't notice anything wrong, the tanks always had a very healthy lead and everyone was pouring it on.



    The mage in the 2nd position has a DTR, too.
    --
    aka Emolate aka Emo aka Sememe aka Senene aka Elmo aka Elmolatte
    Running Windows? Secunia will tell you if you have vulnerable software and browser plugins!
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  • I think we have two separate issues here, actually.

    OMG I'M GONNA DIE

    In today's testing, my aggro alarm went off and I decided to see if I can pull aggro off the tank. I didn't attack for the first 5 seconds, didn't blow cooldowns until about 30 seconds in, and within seconds the aggro alarm went off. I kept pewpewing.

    As you can see in the screenshot, I'm over 100tps past the "pull aggro" mark, 200tps past the tank's threat. Boss didn't even look at me.

    I had noticed that on bosses like Manoroth that there's an aggro reset that corrects for high dps threat. According to Omen, I should have already pulled aggro off of Illidan and then Manoroth starts a cast and the threat is reset so that Illidan is super high in threat and mine is super low. That case seems specific to that boss so I was ignoring it. But now I'm wondering if it's really just that Omen is misreporting my threat. Since this is happening when I blow my cooldowns, I think that what might be happening is that my threat is being duplicated across my clones, which are being ignored by the boss but summed by Omen, which would easily result in a 3-4x multiplier on my threat. A 3x multiplier on my threat would account for the numbers in the screenshot. That would be an Omen bug rather than a problem in the game.

    And that would be a different issue than Asira bopping Hronk in the face, which is also happening.

    I'm going to try switching to Skada.
    Post edited by swirly at 2011-12-14 23:45:23
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • I like Skada a lot, for a while I was implementing a threat counter in oUF but realized I liked being able to thumb through reports and see who isn't DPSing adds and things like that.

    I'm assuming people using Recount are using the one from the WowAce SVN? It's being actively worked on there from the looks of it.

    --
    aka Emolate aka Emo aka Sememe aka Senene aka Elmo aka Elmolatte
    Running Windows? Secunia will tell you if you have vulnerable software and browser plugins!
    http://secunia.com/vulnerability_scanning/online/

  • The Omen admin has confirmed that there is a problem with mage threat reporting while mirror images are up. Then he goes into some bogus math about orders of magnitude that don't reflect the actual numbers, followed by some "I'm so much smarter than you" references to 32-bit signed integer limits, designed to make anyone who doesn't know better to throw up their hands in confusion and accept his "not my bug" answer.

    But the key is: he states that he is doing math when mirror images are up and if Blizz changed it so that he doesn't have to do math when mirror images are up, that explains the threat reporting discrepancy.

    So basically, I let him have it, as I am wont to do, with accompanying Omen chart screenshot and denotation that this is not happening in Threat Plates (which I also use).

    If anyone has an extra $5 laying around, donating it on my behalf might cool him off a bit. I swear I didn't call him any names or refer to his math as bogus.

    (Oh and, the bogus math paragraph states that Blizzard has changed threat and/or threat reporting. Perhaps not in a way that causes Hronk to get punched in the nose when I'm tanking, but I'll let Hronk look at that paragraph and see if it makes any sense to him/ applies to him getting punched in the nose.)
    Post edited by swirly at 2011-12-21 05:15:51
    If you want to stop being called on your bad behavior, stop behaving badly.
  • yeah i am seeing it, i can now pull threat off of most tanks with my mage. I could not before 4.3

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